Professional Neglect and Clear Text Passwords

For that past few years I’ve been the recipient of a monthly reminder from Emug (Edmonton Microsoft User Group). The contents of that email is where the problems lay. Every month that email comes in and it contains 3 pieces of information (plus a lot of boilerplate):

  1. A link to the Emug mailing list admin site
  2. My username
  3. My password in clear text

It doesn’t take much thought to know that storing clear text password is a prime security issue. Sending those passwords in emails doesn’t make it any better. Emails can be intercepted. Systems can be hacked. It’s happened before. Just read about the hack of Or the hack of HB Gary. Two things stand out in these attacks. First, PlentyOfFish stores its passwords in clear text which made it easy to compromise the entire user base once access was achieved. HB Gary (an IT security consulting firm no less) had many users who used the same password between different systems which made it easy to hop from system to system gaining different access.

Most web users don’t heed advice to have a different password for every user account they create. First, it seems unreasonable to try to remember them all. Second, most people believe that using their dogs name combined with their birth date is never going to be hackable. As system designers and operators (which the Emug membership is a professional community of) we should know that we can’t do much of anything to prevent users from choosing bad passwords. We can, however take the steps to ensure that those passwords are adequately protected.

So with all of that in mind I decided to call the Emug people on their password practices. I sent an email of concern to them along with a request that they take the time to do the correct professional thing with regards to their members passwords. The response I received back included…

I know what you're saying about the passwords though, the first one you get is randomly generated and if you ever did go on and change it to a common one then it is there within all the options you can also set it to the option of the password reminder. The option "Get password reminder email for this list?" is a user based control option and you can set that to your liking. It's in with all the digest options.

That’s great. So basically the Emug response was “You don’t have to see that we store your password in clear text if you just go uncheck this one box”. Jeez guys, thanks. So you’re suggesting that I should feel that my password is secure just because I’m not seeing it in an email anymore? Security through naiveté?

Most places / sites/ subscriptions now have an automated email reminder method. It does make you ponder its value but I think the focus on that this is a very low level security setting.

Okay…so because you think “most places/sites/subscription now have an automated email reminder” it’s okay for you to follow the same bad practices? Really? What happened to professionalism? Or integrity? Yah I know, that takes effort and you’re just a volunteer running a community group. Except for one little thing: the members of that community entrusted you with their passwords. There was an implied belief that you would protect those passwords in an acceptable manner. Clearly you’re not.

I also ask you to enumerate “most places / sites / subscriptions” please. I don’t get an email from Google Groups, StackOverflow, etc that contains my password in clear text. I know that those are professional companies and you’re not, but remember that professionalism has nothing to do with the size or revenue of your organization.

The piece of the email that really rubbed me the wrong way was this:

The mailman list serve server and application is maintained centrally not by us for the record. It is more of a self-service model and is intentionally designed for little to no maintenance or requirement to assist an end user.

So you don’t administer the system. That’s fine.  Yes, the current system may have been designed/implemented to require as little end user support as possible. That’s fine too. Here are my beefs. You have the choice to change what tooling you’re using. I’m pretty sure that you’re able to use Google to find replacement options. It will take some time and effort to see the change through, but don’t you think the integrity of your member’s passwords is worth it?

So to Brett, Colin, Ron and Simon: Please show a modicum of professionalism and take care of this issue. Since you chose not to continue the conversation with me via email, I’ve resorted to blogging. I’m submitting your mailing list email to I’ll be contacting other community members in the hopes that they can get through to you. I suspect they won’t be able to, but I feel that I have a professional obligation to at least try.


Mike totman
04/06/2011 09:15 PM by
Mike totman

Coincidentally, I just got my password sent to my by my long distance provider, I wouldn't have thought to post to until you posted this.

04/06/2011 09:35 PM by

I'll release your email to the group. I'm not going to comment o nthis any farther.

04/06/2011 09:50 PM by

@Brett Thanks for releasing the message to the mailing list. I don't understand why you and the rest of the Emug leadership chooses not to talk about this? Can you indulge me in that reason here or via email?

04/06/2011 10:05 PM by

I guess if there was a drag-n-drop widget to encrypt the password this would be a none issue?

Steve Syfuhs
04/06/2011 10:16 PM by
Steve Syfuhs

One of these days, I hope someone makes it illegal to store passwords in plain text.

Kyle Baley
04/07/2011 12:20 PM by
Kyle Baley

Seems like an easy problem for them to solve: Remove your blog from their RSS feed.

Henry Bosch
11/16/2012 10:58 PM by
Henry Bosch

Hi Donald

I'd like to let you know that as of today, EMUG is transitioning away from the Mailman service.

While it's a while since this issue caused ripples, your blog post left the issue open. I'd like to have it considered closed!

Henry Bosch EMUG President